The Problem with Brawl

[Squishii]

Don't get me wrong, Brawl's a decent game, and I've no intention of creating a topic to rag on it.
However, I find people are sometimes, misinformed, so I'll try to clear some things up.

Everyone can agree that Melee was, and still is an amazing party game that friends can pick up and play. Smash has always had a place as one of the
premier party games to ever grace a Nintendo system. However, being over 8 years old, most people have stopped playing Melee, and such was the case
even before Brawl's release. The people who WERE still playing Melee, were the people developing the metagame and establishing Melee as a respectable
fighter. Melee has immense depth and technicality, so much so that it created a divide in those who play it casually (those who claim they play it "for fun")
and those who play it technically (still fun, mind you.)

This tension exploded upon Brawl's release, spawning a number of casual Melee players to forsake Melee, and everyone who played it seriously. Brawl was to
be the new age, with all players equal. Of course, technically speaking Brawl isn't as deep as Melee. That's not to say it's not a good game, because it certainly
improved on other aspects. However, it seemed almost intentional on Sakurai's part to remove certain techniques and combos (almost entirely) in order to
give everyone a fair chance online. As a result, hardcore Melee fans BAWWED and Brawl fans resounded with a cry of "It's Brawl, not Melee 2.0".

The entire situation is now out of hand and driven mostly by immaturity from both sides. Who starts these arguments is irrevelent, but they almost always
occur when a Smash conversation comes up.
(continued)

[Squishii]

Personally speaking, I prefer Melee, but I definetely see the benefits of Brawl. I have personally witnessed these misconceptions from BOTH
sides of the argument.

Brawl Fans (or casualfags, as they are sometimes put)
- Believe Final Destination is the only stage "Tourneyfags" like to play on. Truth being, Melee had around 8 Standard Tournament stages and over 10 OTHER
stages used as counterpicks. Only stages like Mario's Cruise stage and the FZERO stage when actually riding on vehicles are banned. Final Destination
is avoided like the plague when up against certain characters (like CF.)
-Everyone uses Fox. Totally untrue, you see a wide range of characters at any high level tournament. You may not catch many Mewtwo's in a Final's Match
but the point tends to be exaggerated. This leads into the next point...
-Tiers R 4 Queers. This slogan makes me chuckle everytime, because it shows how stubborn people can be. Every other fighting game uses them, and for good reason.
I saw this with emphasis. No respectable player will govern their character preference ENTIRELY on tiers. Different characters match up differently in certain matchups.
This is all Tiers aim to point out. Also, tiers fluctuate. Sometimes, Fox was at the top, other times, Falco. Sheik has also been up there and may still be. Characters like DK
have moved right on up over the years. The point is, they aren't static, and 95% of people you'd meet at a tournament will not ridicule a character choice.
-They all hate Brawl. Not true. Many Melee players made the transition to Brawl just fine, and continue to play competitively. It isn't Black and White.

Melee Fans (Tourneyfags, as they're sometimes called)
- People who play smash casually aren't playing it right. I've heard this opinion several times from certain people. Obviously mistaken, the game can be played
anyway one wants to play it. If you like to sit down with your friends and play 4on4 free for alls (I enjoy it too sometimes) then more power to you!
- Items suck. This point needs to be cleared up, as it is always a hot debate. Items are fun occasionally, and add a little bit of randomness to the game.
As such, items have their own place in casual get togethers or even warmups. Where the distinction lies is in competition, and there are two separate views.
Some people prefer items in competition for the added thrill. This is FINE if everyone agrees. It doesn't make a tournament any less valid. Some people prefer to remove items during tournament play, which is also fine. In a fighting game, you generally want as little as possible to be random. That way, victories are won based on player
action alone. To have your opponent at 100% and have a bomb spawn next to them and end in your own demise has little to do with player action, and more to do with luck.
Tripping is another example I think both sides agree on. The sheer randomness of tripping has the potential to ruin a great match, depending on the situation.
In general, items have their place, and I think both sides could benefit from understanding the perspective of the other.
(continued)

[Squishii]

It pains me to see that some people are still so hostile about this.
A group of people playing Brawl 4on4 with smash balls doesn't equal a bunch of scrubs, merely a different playstyle.
Likewise, a group of players playing Brawl (or melee) without items and avoiding stages like Rumble Falls does not mean they are trying to suck the fun out of the game.
Most often, they are removing the RANDOM elements that get in the way of competition. You've never had random items to throw in Street Fighter. Serious smash competition is no different.

I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Obviously I played smash mainly in a competition sense, but I've been on both sides of the spectrum.
If you have any opinions on it, or questions about the Melee/Brawl tournament crowd (I'm not big in anyway, but I do follow it) feel free to ask.
If I've misrepresented anyone let me know. It would be nice if these two distinct groups could one day live harmoniously, rather than at eachothers throats.

Tl;dr. Melee and Brawl players should get along.

[Singh]

Ahh, I remember reading on of these threads on SRK, it ballooned up to 132 pages or something like that with Brawl vs. Melee guys going at it, while SF/Tekken/SC players either commenting/flaming with the rare guy trying to make sense of it and be helpful.

I've been causal with Smash (I suck lol, go go Spamming Samus!), and have always considered it more of a party game than a fighting game, since in order to make it a fighting game you have to strip it down in order to make it competitive, aka not random. This is usually the argument fighting game players give to Smash players when a few (not all) complain that Smash isn't "respected" by them. I understand that some do enjoy the metagame, and I do respect them for that, but when the creator goes out of his way to remove aspects that make it a fighting game (tripping etc) that make it random and unpredictable, you have to accept that Brawl can't really be competitive since at any point you can be screwed by randomness.

To me, it seems like the problem with Smash is that you have two different parties vying for different things from one series with each party going for the throat of the other. I remember they tried to put Smash (I think it was Brawl) into Evo, but they had to cancel it after a year due to infighting (over items, some kind of Backroom rules people wanted etc). In other fighting games, the scene per-se has evolved to where people have matured where casuals and hardcore can get along with each (with side tournies etc), and each playstyle has its own place. I remember going to a few SF tournies, where I sucked ass, but instead of getting insulted or put down, I've gotten tips from other players on how to improve. I think this is where Smash players need to improve, where everyone can accept the playstyles of each other and get along. It could be stated that demographics are the issue with Smash, but I question that since I've seen some pretty mature young people playing SF lol. Overall, I think Smash players just need to find an equilibrium between causal players and hardcores, with some general maturity, because at the end of the day, its just a game.

Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm quite terrible at this.

TL;DL: Randomness hurts the competitiveness of Brawl, maturity and compromise needs to be found by Smash players.

[Squishii]

Very true. For some reason, with Brawl came an unhealthy sense of pride in whatever playstyle is chosen. Of course, most
decent tournament players I've met are really chill, and play with items for lulz occasionally. Likewise, some people play brawl
(or played Melee) and can accept the fact that it is played at a high level. Moar smash players (particularly those eating each others
heads off in forums) need to think this way.

There is nothing wrong with Brawl as whole. Where a problem arises is when it's treated like a fighting game.
I think Melee did earn respect eventually. I mean, after 9 years or so the metagame is extremely complex, and as such
it fits right in at big tournaments. Or, at least it did.

I think you phrased the randomness aspect better than I did. As a fighting game, theres not much room for random occurence,
especially in a genre that requires such attention, practice and reflexes. Maybe one day we'll reach the point where casuals and
non casuals get along peacefully.

Good to hear there's more support for such an ideal. I mean really, both sides can agree on one thing. You get together to
PLAY SMASH and have a whole lot of fun. Why fuss over the way it's done?

P.S. Your post was easy to read. I think I'm the one rambling. ;D

[Singh]

Melee was respected by those in the fighting game community when it was represented by people who wanted to engage and foster a community, it became an issue when all sorts of rules and exclusive behaviour became evident. I have a lot of respect for Melee, since it can be considered very deep, however the biggest issue for the causal player and the outsider are those who make it SERIOUS BUSINESS YO. I think if people just show common respect for each other and show sportsmanship, Smash would be better off.

As for randomness in fighting games, its usually frowned upon, but there are those that enjoy the game with items (such as in the Evo rule set, with some items turned on, some off), it really comes down to who you're playing with and their maturity level.

[Mikey-G]

I agree with everything that has been said. Yes, there needs to be more love between the different types of Smash players.

This being said, speaking as an exec, it seems that every time we set up Brawl at an event, all we get playing are the hardcore people XD
Anytime I look over, all I see is Final Destination lol
The ratio of hardcore to casual Smash players is like >9000:1, myself being one of the casuals though I can do fine against hardcore people too lol
Hardcore players, give us casuals a chance to play too lol

It saddens me that its so hard for the two groups can't get along, would it kill to play a Custom Stage with Fans Only once and a while? XDDD

Anyways, srs bsns people need to chill out just a tad, and sportsmanship from both sides would be oh-so-nice. Though IMO, Smash was created as a party game, not an intense fighter, but that's just me

tl;dr make love, not war ps needs moar bumpers XD

[Squishii]

Haven't been here in a while, but I agree with ya Mike, except on those ratios. It's actually quite the opposite.
Fight Night for example was a casual affair, and most brawl outings are. FFA, items, ice climber stage and the like.
Had a blast don't get me wrong, maybe I just haven't been around long enough to meet the hardcore crowd here.
Ah well, lost intrest in brawl as of lafe anyway. I picked up TvC that week after I played it at the event, so thanks
if you had a hand in getting it there. <3

p.s. Final destination got gimped, ledges are lame in brawl. Prefer smashville, pokemon stadium or battlefield to be honest. O:

[Nagare]

Yeah, Mikey bought TvC just for FIght Night and didn't even have time to unlock the characters that only appear in the NA release